6 Jan
Non-Biblical Teachings Of Kong Hee (City Harvest Church)
Foreword: this is a word out to Christians out there, and please understand that I do it in all love as I care about your salvation and what you’re learning from church. Sure, I might not know you from Adam, but my concern for you as a brother or sister-in-Christ compels me to write this even as I know it might draw a ton of flak.
Listen to me, and listen well: if you desire a true relationship with God and a real Christian walk, stop listening to the filth that is coming out of that pulpit at City Harvest Church!
This is my personal comment on the teachings of the pastor Kong Hee, after watching his sermon presented this morning (Sunday, January 6, 2008) via the net.
The entire sermon was about setting goals that are Specific, Measurable, Action-Plan, Realistic Goals, Time-Conscious, or S.M.A.R.T goals. For the Christian, since, well, it’s a church eh?, he added 2 more characteristics for goals that one should set — Expectation management and Revelation, thus making the goals for Christians S.M.A.R.T.E.R.
I took notes as I watched the sermon once there was an indication that this sermon was going to be the filth that is the prosperity gospel again as is the norm at City Harvest Church.
First off, our Christian walk is not a self-improvement course in how to better set goals and realize our best in finances, marriage, relationships, etc.! Our Christian walk is about our relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, and working with ‘fear and trembling’ towards our salvation (Philippians 2:12).
Secondly, Kong Hee took passages from Bible versions as and when they fitted into the message he was trying to bring across. For example, if the New Living Translation (NLT) had the word ‘goal’ in one verse, he’d take the interpretation of Scripture in that version and underline that word.
Below is my point-for-point rebuttal of the sermon:
Taking Verses Out of Context
Kong Hee reads from the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible, citing Luke 11:34 and only mentioning the first part of the verse where it says “The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light;”
It’s not surprising that he only mentioned the first part of the verse, because next up is veering the topic towards how the fact that “thine eye is single” equates to focus and therefore leads to goal-setting.
The entire verse in Luke 11:34 (KJV) actually states this:
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
Now, you tell me: even someone with some rudimentary knowledge of English will tell you that reading the entire verse does not give one the impression that it has anything to do with focus and goal-setting. One can easily infer from the word ‘evil’ in the opposite lesson the word ’single’ would mean something similar in meaning to ‘good’, no?
In fact, the English Standard Version translates that verse thus:
Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness.
There is nothing in that verse that speaks of focus and goal-setting!
In fact, I’d like to ask Kong Hee why he is teaching something else together instead of the entire context from which verse 34 is in? Our Lord Jesus Christ taught this:
No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness. If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light.
What a contrast when pitted against his brand of market-place gospel, isn’t it?
There’s more:
- Quotation of 1 Corinthians 9:26 out of context
- Quotation of Philippians 3:14 out of context
- Quotation of Proverbs 16:9 out of context and without mentioning (again!) the second part of the verse where it says that “but the Lord establishes his steps.”
I beseech you, brethren, that those who were there at the sermon read those verses for yourself in their context and search as the good Bereans did if indeed the pastor has taught the Bible or some self-improvement goal-setting lesson from the pulpit instead.
Purpose-Driven Drivel
I am not surprised at all that at the closing of his sermon that he brought the purpose-driven drivel into focus.
Oh, yes, my dear brethren, the promise that the new year will be the best that you’ve ever had is repeated all over the world in churches expounding the prosperity gospel in case you don’t already know! In fact, there’s record that they do it almost every year!
Calling to Unbelievers
How does a sermon that has served nothing but to teach a non-Biblical lesson touch any non-believers in the midst of that many-thousand-strong congregation?
I was surprised that a call to the unbelievers was even made! Look, if I were an unbeliever, I wouldn’t have gone forward to be led to become a Christian unless I’d said “hey, I’d like some of that riches that your God gives!”.
What kind of Christians will they be?
Where’s the preaching of sin in the first place? I don’t believe anyone can become a true Christian and disciple of Christ unless there is conviction in their hearts that they are sinners and are repentant and know that only the Lord Jesus Christ is able to forgive them and make them acceptable before God!
Can someone be moved to know that he or she needs Christ because the pastor taught a lesson in setting goals? If so, we should be seeing more conversions at Anthony Robbins seminars than in churches!
I worry for the souls of those who went forward. I really do. Because like the parable that our Lord Jesus Christ taught, these will be those who shall be building their houses on shifting sand, and a great fall they shall have when the winds blow and the rains beat down!
What Gives Then?
No, I am not jealous of the success of City Harvest Church nor Kong Hee (in fact, Kong Hee is a senior at our alma mater). I have no reason to be.
Neither did I start out with an agenda to be mean or unkind, but after hearing so much filth from the pulpit in the church and having listened in on a few archived sermons at their website, it weighs heavily on my heart to warn.
The truth of the matter is that a cousin from my wife’s side of the family now attends that church and I’m hoping to counsel him and help him see the truth. That’s why I sometimes would watch their sermons and find out more about the church for myself.
Dear brethren, besides fellowship, attending church is for your education in all things spiritual and edifying to your soul, so that you might be further strengthened in your understanding of teachings in God’s Word and be no more as babes, but matured disciples of Christ.
The prosperity gospel is a false gospel that will lead you astray! It teaches nothing but worldly principles and treating God as some vending machine. And all you’re in fact doing when you give to the church (or sow, as they call it), is buying some lottery ticket that says “God shall bless me when I give more to the building fund” (thank you, Deborah, for sharing this analogy).
If you are from City Harvest Church, or even from another church, and are truly concerned, then pray for Kong Hee to wake up from his delusion, repent, and start preaching God’s Word instead of the prosperity gospel.
I shall also pray that you shall learn to discern and seek to study the Bible and learn what God teaches about the Christian life, instead of listening to the apostasy many teachers now falsely teach.
Shalom Aleichem.
Tags: City Harvest Church, English Standard Version, ESV, Goals, King James Version, KJV, Kong Hee, New Living Translation, NLT, Prosperity Gospel
Posted by Daphne Maia on 06.01.08 at 10:35
hey, he preached the same ‘message’ a few years ago, when i was stil attending chc! i remember the ’smart’ goals cos at that pt in time i was thinking tht i wld be better off attending a business/self-development talk (which i actually hate) … haha.
oh well.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thank you for visiting and sharing your thoughts, Daphne. So it is a rehashed and re-packaged sermon? You’re right, it is more of a self-help seminar rather than a church sermon!
Where do you now attend church?
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I don’t like these kind of messages - especially when verses are taken out of context. But I don’t think you can judge Pastor Kong Hee or City Harvest based just on that one sermon and not knowing and experiencing all that CHC is doing and has done. I don’t attend CHC and would probably never do so for various reasons, but I respect Kong Hee and CHC for all they’ve done. Going is using them to change many lives. I have my own reservations about how some things are done there, but ultimately, I thank God for such a church and will bless them.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thank you for visiting my blog and sharing your thoughts on this, stillhaventfound.
I wish to correct 2 misleading statements you made:
1. You are putting words into my mouth — I did not in any manner condemn Kong Hee nor judge him or the church that he leads. I am warning against the false and dangerous teachings at this church. In fact, I went on to ask that Christians who care should pray for the pastor to repent and teach the Word of God in earnest.
2. You are also assuming that I do not know what they’ve done, or listened in to enough sermons to arrive at my conclusion. I’ve been listening in for quite some time now to various sermons of theirs, and it has been the same theme over and over again.
With those said, let me state my point:
There needs be one thing said — theology is important, even more so than whatever good one is doing in the world. Will you say that a non-Christian who has been doing great works of charity has sound theology with regards to the only source of salvation, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior?
It is even more so that a congregation that calls itself a church be led by sound Biblcal doctrine! Jesus said that upon those who lead astray there shall be greater condemnation, and God also said (and I paraphrase a little here) that chastisement and discipline begins within the body of Christ.
That’s a fallacy that many fall into today — that just because someone is ‘good’ and does a lot of good works, that that person must be sound in doctrine. I don’t agree with that at all.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Aaron on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I applaud you for your message, and the time you have spent to think this up, and to post it on your blog Sicarii.
I have my own reservations against that church, but most of what bothers me is as you said, the prosperity gospel.
If you hear the speaker speak just as its time for donations or tithes, you’ll think that there’s a higher chance of striking it rich than buying 4d or Toto in the streets.
This entire thing of quoting only what you want to quote from the bible without looking at the context is a very scary thing indeed. I could probably do the same for MM Lee’s speeches and actually sound credible, because those are half-truths.
And we all know the power of half-truths.. which is more powerful than a wholly constructed lie.
For the spiritual sake of the people in CHC, i sincerely hope that what you say will be right: that pastor Kong Hee will ‘wake up’ someday.
Posted by Miccheng on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Sicarii,
I’ve learnt from a long time ago not to judge / condemn the work of the Holy Spirit. If God works thru those means to save lives - so be it. One’s beliefs either limit oneself to God’s grace or gives us access to the “glorious riches in Christ Jesus”. If its your belief that our riches is in heaven - shaloam and be on your way, my brother.
I’m not a supporter of prosperity gospel either… but i’ve learnt not to judge the work of man if its bearing fruits of salvation and the reaping of souls. If these souls are God’s own children, will He not care for their growth and in their relationship with God?
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Ian On The Red Dot :: Scary… City Harvest Church Is So Bad… on 06.01.08 at 10:35
[...] up and saw this post on ping.sg. Firstly, I LOVE what this guy wrote. Really. I did. Now, I know why I turned my back on [...]
Posted by xizor2000 on 06.01.08 at 10:35
It’s been a long time since I ceased to listen to what Pastor Kong has to say. God has given all He can give on the Cross. Nothing but His great love caused Him to do that. Nothing we can do can make Him give more. I can hardly believe the God who so willingly went to the Cross for all mankind, would have made His blessings proportional to what we offer in return.
Posted by Sidharth on 06.01.08 at 10:35
That verse you quoted in original Greek is : ” when your eyes are single, they whole body is also full of light”
Jesus speaks hear of something that would affect our ENTIRE, WHOLE BODY. And that which affects our whole body, according the original Greek is ” When your eyes are single…”. One of the marvelous things about human eyes unlike many animals is that we have two eyes but by focusing we can form one image. I believe , first and foremost, this verse deals with having a single image. That is, they’re focused to make a single and clear image.
I believe many Christians suffer from lack of focus. That is why the spiritual world s kind of misty, half real
Now the Greek word for “single” also means simple or sincere.
If our eyes are simple, if we see things just the way they are written, then you are not too clever or too philosophic. The barriers to simplicity are rationalization and sophistication. When preachers begin to quote too many worldly experts trying to authenticate the Bible, it’s moving onto a dangerous platform. We should learn to accept the Word simple. Those who try complicating the Bible with theological explanations and arguments , trying to appear very profound have less chance to reach God and have the reality of spiritual things than a person who is simple.
Jesus spoke with such simplicity that even the babes could understand Him, the message of the Cross is too simple for many and so they reject it.
How I love simplicity!
Sidharth
Posted by Ian Timothy on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I don’t think people are making the mistake that just because someone is doing good works they equate that with the same person being sound in doctrine or strong in theology. Like you said, it might not make sense to say a non-christian who does good works has sound theology. I mean, we did say he/she was a non-christian. Although, some non-christians do know a lot more than christians in terms of theology.
What I might agree with is that people believe that doing good works is as important if not more important than being strong in theology.
I disagree with you when you say that theology is more important than whatever good someone is doing in the world.
They are equally important.
I have met Christians who know everything there is to know about love. But it is just head knowledge. They don’t know how to love.
Although I believe that loving people without letting them know the true source of love which is God benefits no one in the long run.
To me, to just focus on theology is just to satisfy one’s self. It is very inner looking.
To focus on helping others without theology is to build a structure without proper foundation. You would need theology for the foundation.
You need both.
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Sicarii,
I agree that theology is important. Ever since I became a Christian, I’ve devoured theological books. And I love to discuss theology. However, I don’t think that’s the point.
Firstly, we all have different theologies. There’s probably as many theologies as there are Christians - no Christian believes alike on every thing. If so, it comes to a point of asking what’s important. Are we going to be critical of everyone who differs from us? I disagree with City Harvest on a lot of what they teach. And I would disagree with a lot of what the church I go to teaches too. By all means, be critical, but do it in a spirit of love and also realizing that we could be wrong and we can learn from others. And are we going to be critical about everything that we disagree with? Then we will have a lot to be critical about. I also don’t think it’s helpful to use words like “apostasy”.
When I talk about the good works of City Harvest, I’m not talking just about their charitable work or whatever. But also how they’ve reached out to many people here in Singapore and overseas. You’re talking about souls for God’s Kingdom. You’re talking about lives being transformed by the power of God. God is glorified in that. You may think that they are under false teachings. If so, do you attribute changed lives to the devil? I’d be careful not to do that. I believe God blesses imperfect churches and imperfect theology - I don’t think there’s any other kind of Churches that exist in this world.
Yes, I may not be totally happy about a lot of other things that they do and believe, but I rejoice in what God’s done through them. And yes, I do believe that God has done much through them. They are not the perfect church, but I’ve not come across any. Maybe if you or I pastor a church, it’ll be perfect in doctrine and practice. At least in our own eyes - probably not in others.
So I’m all for being critical. But I believe we should acknowledge no one is perfect. I definitely wouldn’t use the word “apostasy” to describe other churches - unless they deny the essentials. We’ll all disagree on the non-essentials. But that’s not as important as denying the essentials.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Aaron:
Thank you for your kind words. At this juncture, I’d also like to categorically state that by doing this I do not have any personal agenda or vendetta against CHC, Kong Hee, or the congregation.
I am worried because there are so many false teachers amongst us and that people are not discerning enough to know. One mark of a false teacher is the twisting of Scripture, including misquoting Scripture wilfully to fit an agenda (2 Peter 3:14-18).
Thank you for visiting, and sharing your thoughts.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Miccheng:
Good warning indeed, but I have this to ask you: If there are these teachers like Joel Osteen who also ‘win souls’, what would you say?
Be not mistaken, my brother! False teachers are alike wolves in sheep’s clothing and they might have a form of godliness and many think them to be saving souls when they are destroying many. That’s why they are called wolves in sheep’s clothing.
If they were just wolves, you could spot them a mile away, but when they mingle among sheep, most are not discerning enough to tell them apart.
My post serves as my personal point of view and a warning to be discerning. The Bible specifically teaches Christians to test everything to see that they indeed link up with Scripture.
And it is my personal stand that if something that is taught in a church by a pastor or teacher is not Scripturally sound, I’ll reject it and call it out.
If Martin Luther did not reject and call out against the false teachings of the Roman Church during his time, would you and I have, amongst other things, the privilege of studying the Bible for ourselves today?
That’s my 2 cents.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
XZ:
Well put indeed. There’s no way we can ‘buy’ blessings from God. The oft-quoted verse from the Bible from these teachers is that the more you give, the more God will bless you.
God desires you to live a life worthy of being called His disciple, His child. In fact, Christ calls us to take up our cross and walk after Him!
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Sidharth:
Thank you for the explanations. Yes, I love how simple the message in the Bible is, and I’m learning that everyday, brother.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Sidharth on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Sound doctrine is absolutely necessary. Without the elementary doctrines right, no one can press onto maturity. [Heb 6:1-2]
Sidharth
Posted by Miccheng on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Sicarii,
Just how much formal Christian education did you attend? Did you major in Divinity in some undergraduate studies? Are you a Presbyterian by any chance?
Miccheng
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Miccheng:
I didn’t major in divinity, and I was a Bible-Presbyterian.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Miccheng on 06.01.08 at 10:35
“was” a Bible-Presbyterian? So what denomination are you in now?
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Miccheng:
I just consider myself a Bible-believing Protestant who stands by the 5 Solas:
– Sola Scriptura
– Sola Fide
– Sola Gratia
– Solus Christus
– Soli Deo Gloria
I hope that answers your question. How about your good self?
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Crissy on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I have a question to ask dear brethren.
Have you ever prayed for a financial blessing before?
Because I don’t think you did. I had many breakthroughs in my sowing of my offerings and tithes in the area of my business.
SO if you ever want to talk about prosperity message, ask yourself if you have been blessed financially by God?
If you say its nonsense, take Elim Chew for example. She started out with nothing but with only a passion to start a trendy retail shop. True God’s blessings and her givings, she got where she was now.
And I have another thing to ask. Have you ever heard Dr A R Benard before? He believes in the prosperity gospel too, so are you right to say his teachings are false as well?
If so, why is there still so many people, senators, congressmans, celebrities want to listen to him preach?
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Crissy:
First off, thank you for visiting my blog and sharing your thoughts on this.
Pertaining to praying for financial breakthroughs or help, of both I have done so. In fact, just a couple of days ago, I experienced a little miracle related to how God has blessed me in this area. If you like, you can read about it here.
Though we all do ask God for financial breakthroughs or help at one time or another, let me also clarify something as well: the prosperity gospel is another matter altogether. The prosperity gospel elevates gifts above the Giver, who is God.
It teaches that the more you sow in terms of giving to the church or to a teacher’s ministry, you’ll be blessed back 40x, 60x or even 100x of what you sowed. Is that how God works? Can you buy God’s blessings?
The answer, Crissy, is no.
The messages I heard can be summarized thus: “Give, give, and give! More for the building fund! Arise, build!”
And when people go on stage to give testimonies, all we hear is, summarized:
A: “I gave more to the building fund last year, this year I had 20-fold increase in my salary!”
B: “I gave my last $500 on me, today I have a net worth of US$2 million!”
And many in the congregation are probably going “wow, I want that 2 million net worth too! I’ll give more this year.” Or “Hey! I’ll be a Christian too, BMW here I come!”
Is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Is that all Christianity is about? Are people becoming Christians so that they can become rich? I don’t think that that’s a good reason to become a Christian because you might be sorely disappointed.
What about our Lord Jesus Christ’s teaching to lay up treasures in heaven instead of on earth (Matthew 6:19-21)?
How about “Seek first the kingdom of God”? When we seek God first, all that we need (not want) is given unto us because Jesus Christ promised that (Matthew 6:25-31)!
I shan’t comment on either Elim Chew or Dr. A R Bernard here, because I don’t know Elim’s personal testimony well, nor do I have enough knowledge about Dr. Bernard to comment. Besides, I’ve been moved to not comment.
God bless, and Shalom!
Posted by Alan Higgins on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thanks for your comments on my site and its good to see that you are seacrching the scriptures for yourself like the Berean church (Acts 17:11)
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
It’s great to see you here, Alan.
Thank you for visiting and the encouragement, mate!
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Ian On The Red Dot :: The Prosperity Gospel Of City Harvest Church (or at least the way I understand it) on 06.01.08 at 10:35
[...] that, let me share two points that Sicarii has problems [...]
Posted by Mei on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hey, only been to City Harvest once when I just relocated back to Singapore and 1st time attending a church in Singapore as a christian. Although I did not have a very good experience during the service, I was very surprised when I saw teenagers reading in the bus the notes that they took.
My hope is that somehow God will speak to these teenagers, touch their heart and give them wisdom as they sought after Him.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thank you for dropping by, Mei.
Indeed, yet I believe that prayer is hope and if one is truly concerned for the youths who are given only half-truths from pulpits such as these, then we need to commit to remembering them in our prayers too.
I like your blog, especially your illustrations. You have a wonderful gift there, sister.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by sigit on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I guess you should tell the pastor straightly so that he will know that he teach the different things than The Word of GOD.
It’s good to have a vision but VISION OF WHAT?
Your Vision? GOD vision? or your vision in GOD vision?
Many motivational things teach the first one
Many church tell the second one
But the wiser tell the third one..
GOd respect our vision but if our vision in one frame with GOD vision: It’s perfect….
If you have opportunity to contact The Pastor, tell him straightly that he teach the different thing. I think it’s better than telling everybody that he’s wrong
Posted by Daniel Chew on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hello Isaiah,
wow. Good to see that you are tackling the Word-faith, prosperity cult. Do continue to pray and discern the Word of Truth.
Stillhaventfound:
Jonathan, I see that you have a new domain name for your blog…. Interesting
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I’d love to, Sigit, but I don’t attend that church, and I don’t reckon I’ll be able to catch him so easily.
Thank you for the link from your blog, brother. It’s been my pleasure to link to you too.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Greetings, Daniel:
Thank you for the encouragement, brother.
I have tried refraining from writing this piece seeing that I’ve written a couple of such rants before but if it gets to me, I just had to get it off my chest though I know these articles always draw a lot of flak.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Can’t we just all get along?
I just visited City Harvest on Sunday. The teachings are not that great or solid, but I don’t think they are unbiblical either. I mean, we all have our idea of what’s biblical and unbiblical. We all believe differently. But as long as they believe in the essentials, we can differ on the non-essentials and I’ll still bless them.
I really absolutely love how City Harvest reaches out to many low-income people that are not as educated or “wise” as we all. Oh, how God loves them. And I don’t see many churches doing that successfully. But CHC is so mightily used of God to reach out to these people and to youths. I pray everything good goes well with CHC and its leadership. I disagree with a lot of things they may do but I’ll bless them and bless them always from the bottom of my heart.
Posted by kate on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hi Sicarii or Isaiah (u one or two persons?)
Happen to read your blog when I google CHC.
I was in CHC for 6 yrs, left some time last year because of too much emphasis on wealth n health doctrines.
Firstly, I would commend you for writing to warn serious Christians to search the Bible. Tho most CHC pple will tend to contest what you say but take heart, God will speak to those who seek him and direct their paths as He has show directed my family.
But in all fairness to CHC:
They hv a very passionate congregation seeking to extend the kingdom of God. A very high proportion of those who attend are very passionate in their worship, note taking of sermons, bringing friends, committed to serve in various ministry. Many of our other churches has much to learn from them in these areas.
They also give of their best be it efforts, time or money… tho some say they are hoping to reap. Nevertheless this is another area that we can learn from them…we can learn to be generous and not so tight fisted… in our work/outreach to give of our best , to give what we treasure not our junk to church or mission trips etc. If they have an event or big day, they always ensure that the events are of excellent standards for our God is a God of excellence.
In short, the pple there are taught to have great attitudes and to have passion. If we top these up with sound doctrines, imagine how our church will be.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Stillhaventfound.org:
I quote you saying: “I mean, we all have our idea of what’s biblical and unbiblical.”
Um, no, I don’t hold to that. Saying that, in my opinion, is dangerous. It gives rise to the fact that we can just dismiss any bad application of doctrine to “oh, we just think it’s Biblical”, like what some emergent churches are doing.
Sure, the essentials of faith and to salvation might be similar. Beyond that, and let me give you an example here: we can disregard non-essentials like whether baptism should be full immersion or not, but to insist that baptism is essential for salvation is bad application of doctrine.
I’m not dissing people who attend CHC. Neither do I distance myself from them. It’s just my sincere wish that those who truly want to seek God are not led astray, for many are young Christians and like babes, they need healthy milk to grow.
I’m not talking about you here, but just making a point in general: there’s just this sickening thing in Christendom today where when wrong teachings are pointed out, other Christians immediately assume that the one pointing the wrong teachings out is out to get the church or community and doing it out of spite.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Kate:
Thank you for visiting my blog and sharing your thoughts on this issue.
My real name is Isaiah and I go by the nick ‘Sicarii’ on blogs and online communities. :-)
I’d agree with you that I do see such enthusiasm amongst some folks I’ve met who are from CHC. There’s nothing wrong with that, and yes, there are definitely good qualities about them that stale Christians can learn from.
Yet, as I mentioned to Stillhaventfound.org, my premise is that I am warning them in love in the hope that they receive good and healthy milk so that they can grow in stature and in their walk with God. The health and prosperity gospel does nothing for growth.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by Daniel Chew on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I have been considering whether to do this, but anyway, because of the potential seriousness of the issue, ’stillhaventfound’ is Jonathan Koh, former Reformed Charismatic turned Emerging and Liberation theology adherent. Just mention this so that we will know who we are dealing with; not someone who is ignorant about the faith, but someone who has knowingly turned his back on true doctrine and embrace the heresies of people like Emergent Brian McLaren, the Neo-orthodox heresies of Karl Barth, Liberal heresy of the heretic Desmond Tutu, and the dialetical rubbish of unbelievers like Karl Marx. He also believes the liberal libel and slander against the nation of Israel (You know the mantra: Israel is always wrong no matter what she does or doesn’t do).
I thought I would just mention this because based on my past experiences, Jonathan just doesn’t learn. He refuses to submit to the authority of Scripture, and is being used to undermine the faith of others. He has long since jettisoned the principle of Sola Scriptura and treats all secular and theology books with the same ‘reverance’ as Scripture. Given what he claims to believe then and now, he has abandoned the faith and should be treated as an apostate. May God have mercy on his soul, or he will one of those who will face double damnation since he once held and profess the faith.
P.S. Jonathan, if you are still interested in a debate, email me. I have been very busy and have sortof forgotten about it, but since I have finished my stidues and also the publication of my book, I can find the time to do it now.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thank you for that insight, Daniel. I’m so sad to hear that he has decided to trust in the Emerging Church movement, which is true apostasy!
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Wow, I guess I should have expected this coming from Daniel. Daniel, let me say that I believe your actions and words are not out of love. Most of what you wrote about me is wrong. Eventhough you have a passion for truth and defending it, you must realize that going at it the way you do doesn’t help at all. I disagree with your theology, but if you want to believe in it, that’s fine. But I just hope you’ll go at it in a more humble and loving way. You don’t win people over by writing what you do.
To respond to you:
1) I don’t know much about Karl Barth except the very common “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so” story. I don’t know much about his theology and I don’t adhere to his theology
2) I’m not Emergent or Emerging in my thinking. I may have written in my website that the tradition I most identify with is the Emergent tradition. But that’s in the past. I haven’t followed up with them. I admire McLaren for one of his books I read and his articles. I don’t agree with him on all points of his theology - and I don’t even know what he believes in now because I don’t read him.
3) As for Desmond Tutu, I don’t even know what he believes in. All I know is that I admire a person like him and Mandela for what they’ve done in South Africa.
4) As for Karl Marx, wow, I may have quoted him once or twice, but again, I don’t exactly care for what he believes in.
5) As for Israel, I am on the same books as a lot of Evangelical Christians regarding their political actions. I’m probably even on the same book as John Piper, whom you guys are familiar with. Theologically, they are the people of God and loved passionately by God and in future God will renew them.
6) I have never accepted Liberation Theology. I’ve admired the spirit of Liberation Theologians and those who accept such theology - the spirit to help the poor and marginalized. But theology wise, it’s not biblical.
7) You have every right to critique my beliefs, but you’ve gone overboard and are not even speaking the truth. I have a lot that both you and Isaiah would disagree with - like I’m a charismatic. But your accusations have been totally out of line.
8) I have no desire to debate you. As much as I love to discuss with friends and challenge each other and learn more, I think it has to be in the right spirit of love and humility - where both sides are willing to learn from each other, not wanting to prove that their right.
9) Regarding all your other charges, I will just leave them as it is. I don’t know how you come out with all these words and ideas. I just hope you go to the Lord and re-evaluate how you’ve been treating me and how you write to other people. It’s not helpful or loving. Neither is it truthful.
9) Isaiah, I’m sad that you’ve accepted his word without even talking to me.
Lastly, may the Lord help us all in all our speech. May we be more aware of what words come out of our mouths. I myself am not exempt from this prayer. And may we truly know His heart and how He feels in all of this.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Jonathan:
I think it’s unfair to say that I’ve accepted Daniel’s word on you wholesale. I apologize for giving you that impression, without first seeking to hear your side of the story.
Shalom.
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Dear Isaiah, I accept your apologies. Cheers!
Posted by scientist on 06.01.08 at 10:35
God exist? Prove it:).Really
How does the earth come to be.Do sun revolve around earth?
Remember Christ forgive you for everything sodomy,rape,murder but not if you deny the holy spirit .Why?
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
He sure does! If He doesn’t, you won’t be breathing and have the capacity to ask the question. ;-)
Shalom.
Posted by Daniel Chew on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Jonathan,
for someone who complains about judging, you sure do a lot of judging yourself. How do you know what my motive is, that ‘my beliefs and actions are not out of love’?
Regarding the charges,
1) So all your talk during the times when you were still orthodox (before you went to Australia to study) was just talk?
2) Yeah, I will believe you when you repented of even promoting his stuff, and of thinking it is right to even attend the heretical pro-sodomite Free Community Church.
3) I’ll let this one pass. Hmmm, come to think about it, you did quote his brother’s words to make a point (cf point 5)
4) So when you read Karl Marx previously (or was it Lenin or Stalin), you do not find anything wrong there?
5) I still possess a soft copy of the online exchange we had regarding Israel; and how that article of yours which you have sent quoted various liberals, and you yourself believe in what those fools believe. If you dispute that, I can post that online for all to see.
6) Then why do you support non-Christian liberals like U2? And all those liberal campaigns like ‘STOP poverty now’ etc, when all they do is talk only, and is basically soft-selling the Communist principle of wealth distribution?
7) Prove it! I have documentary proof with regards to (5) at least, so we can say that you have lied about that.
8 ) In other words, unless we can sit down in a spirit of ecumenism, you would not debate? You should read 2 Cor. 6:14-18 for once
9) Whether it is truthful can be seen by all. Why don’t you start proving the charges wrong, or do you want me to make public the material evidence? Too bad I didn’t tape our last conversation in which, if I’m not wrong, you said that you found nothing wrong with ecumenism with the Roman harlot, nevermind that they deny the Gospel.
Oh, and by the way, your article on so-called ‘Biblical Dialectics’ can be seen in your website here (http://www.stillhaventfound.org/progressive-christianity-theology/biblical-dialectics), where you promote the diabolical philosophical of Hegelian dialectics. Are you going to defend that as something biblical? To all, try reading what is written there alongside 2 Cor. 6:14-18, and various other passages especially in the Old Testament (ie Leviticus and Deuteronomy) about the need to be holy and of non- conformity with the world (cf Rom. 12:1-2), then decide for yourself whether this article written by Jonathan is the wisdom of God or the wisdom from below.
And I will exhort all others to examine everything in the light of Scripture. Remember, that our adversary and his minions comes in the form of an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14-15). We should not embrace someone just because the person speaks peace, but whether the person is truly speaking the peace of God as defined in His word.
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn (Is. 8:20 - NIV)
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Daniel, I have no desire to engage anymore with you here or elsewhere. I think most who have read these exchanges would understand why.
I don’t think it’s been a healthy exchange. Nor do I see the need to defend myself. I am a nobody. God is my judge, my conscience is clear and that is all that matters to me
Your words hardly have any effect upon me. Actually, it does. It amuses me partly, and also saddens me. But sorry to say I’ll not let it get to me and will not further our exchange. Call me whatever you want and accuse me as much as you want. But I’ll not let you steal my joy in the Lord 
If anyone wants to talk to me about what Daniel said, please feel free to email me.
Other than that, may God richly bless you brother. That’s all I have to say!
Posted by † P§¥KØ †™ on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Whoa… for someone who’s not intending to condemn or judge my church, you sure use the word “filth” more times than I’m confortable with.
From what I gather, you’ve only listened this and various other sermons. I’ve been in this church for 6 years now. Do I see a problem with the preaching? I admit, some may not be as interesting, but to be non-bibilical? I doubt so. I’m not those blur or false Christians who merely believe, but I do really go deep in Christianity as well as my relationship with God.
6 years in chuch equals to around 300 sermons heard. You’re saying that you reject the prosperity gospel and claim this is what my pastor usually preaches. If you haven’t attended this church for 6 years, I hope you wouldn’t assume so much. Pastor Kong has preached many more messages on love, forgiveness and many aspects that are central to the Christian faith. No doubt he believes in the prosperity gospel, but what is that to you? I used to be quite narrow-minded towards financial areas, but I must say, this “prosperity gospel” has helped me, although I don’t believe it as a gospel per se. What I’m trying to say is that the pastors don’t tell us to give more and more and so we’ll be blessed more and more. What God desires is sacrifice, and financially, that does mean our money. But it can also involve our lives, our sleep, our short-cuts we may be tempted to take, which God sees when we choose to sacrifice. During the SMARTER sermon, he didn’t mention it. Very well. But you cannot excuse the fact that Pastor Kong has mentioned these things in previous messages. I’ve heard, and see you mentioning the messages that come out of the pulpit as filth is really a verbal slap in the face.
I was not born Christian, and this is my first church. I’ve heard countless messages on various aspects of Christianity and how it relates to the world. Who saved me? God. Which church did He use to do it? This one. If you’re saying that what comes from this pulpit is filth, then explain why so many people give their lives toward Jesus and change for so much better when listening to “filth”? By saying our church preaches filth, you’d be saying other churches who believe similar things are preaching filth as well. Willow Creek Community Church, Christian City Church, Christian Cultural Centre. The biggest names in Christianity, AR Bernard, Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, Joyce Meyer, Phil Pringle. All of them believe in the prosperity gospel. Why not do you charge their preaching as filth?
And as for taking verses out of context, Philippians 4:13 says “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” In context, Paul was saying this for himself. But this is one of the most popular verses people use for themselves for encouragement. Why do you not say they’re taking the verses out of context? In Matthew, one of the verses state that an ancient prophecy was fulfilled when Joseph and Mary brought Jesus out of Egypt. “Out of Egypt I called my Son.” But in context this was referring to Israel, a nation, not a person, when they left Egypt. Why don’t you accuse the Bible (or Matthew in particular) of yanking that verse out of context? The fact is, they can be used in other contexts, so long as it does not undermine the central aspects of the faith. And God mightily blessed Job, Abraham, Lot and so many others in material wealth, many times with their sacrifice… not purely in the financial realm. Who’s to say that this isn’t the case for us? As I said before, Pastor Kong did not mention this on the SMARTER sermon, and I have no excuse for that. But hearing many other messages related, it has been mentioned before, and therefore it is very judgemental of you to call our messages filth, since you have not had 6 years worth of other sermons to hear.
I will say this, although it may sound arrogant. I apologize if it does. City Harvest Church has done much good, and the messages the pastors preach have changed lives and mindsets for the better. I am a living example. If you really don’t believe it, check out my blog, where you can see 5 years of life, usually day by day. See if you’re not the only agreeing that I’ve been changed for the better with this “filth”. I’ve seen (and know) gangsters, drug addicts, smokers, murderers all change for the better in this church. People that I inadvertantly stereotyped as those who would not respond to the gospel have become greater people than I could have ever imagined. You really want us to have a good and true relationship with Jesus? We’re doing fine here.
Posted by Promoter of Truth in KL on 06.01.08 at 10:35
In the Old Testament, God used an ass to instruct so I have no doubt that He can use City Harvest church - yes there are people there whose lives have been changed. However there have been countless others whose lives have been impacted negatively and who have dropped out - disillusioned and disappointed. I have seen first hand the damage that City Harvest has done in the lives of several former adherents. Your assessment of there theology is correct and I think you have done it in a proper manner. The Bible warns us that in the last days people will come doing many things “in His names” and that they will be so tricky that they will almost deceive the best of us. Of those in the Bible also says that in the last day when they “remind” the Lord of all the htings they did in his name His response will be “depart form me, I do not know you”. You are to be commended for speaking the truth - the prosperity gospel is filth - ironically you see it flourishing in greedy countries like the US, Singapore and Malaysia amongst people who are looking for a spiritual excuse for their greed. I wonder why it does not take hold amongst the hundreds of thousands of believers in Bangladesh or India. I hope that you and others will not be afriad to speak for the truth. The problem is that many of the followers of CHC are wonderful and well meaning people but unfortunately they have not been taught (deliberately) to be discerning. God bless you - keep it up.
Posted by Daniel Chew on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Jonathan, I see that you have deluded yourself and your conscience. I will continue to pray that God will open your eyes to see the heresy you have embraced and that He will grant you repentance. What’s the use of a conscience when it violates the expressed revelation of God?
And since you have continued to harden yourself in this manner, being closed to any form of scriptural correction, then I must of neccessity continue to warn others against you wherever you are seen trying to deceive the flock. I will exercise my calling as a watchman in this, so that your corruption will not corrupt and destroy the flock.
And I am not sure whether you are a brother in Christ. What I am sure is that your ecumenism, broad tolerance of heresy, and embrace of Hegelian dialetics does not mark you as one. As such, you are considered an enemy of Christ until you repent. Really, the problem with the church lies with people and clergy who think and behave the same as you, unlike the Reformers and Puritans of much earlier times.
Posted by Daniel Chew on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Psyko:
seeing you profess to be a new believer, let me ask you these questions:
1) What is the Gospel?
2) What are the evidences of salvation? How do you you are saved, and these others also are saved, instead of just psychoing yourself? How do you know you all are not creating a false image called Jesus to worship?
3) With regards to the churches and people you mention, show me where in Scripture it is stated that numbers and influence = Biblical faithfulness
4) I am no fan of Willow Creek, and of the people in your list, for those I know, I do not regard them as true preachers. Bill Hybels preaches pargmatism. Rick Warren teaches lots of errors, of which you can buy a copy of my book to find out. Joyce Meyer is a heretic. I am no fan of contemporary Christianity; rather I prefer the faith which was confessed for 2000 years, and counting.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Psyko:
Since you associated in no small way that CHC preaches the same message as some of the biggest names in Christianity today, I’ll categorically state here that I don’t believe in the preachings coming out of folks like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren et al either.
They simply don’t teach Biblical messages.
Does one need 6 years of being in CHC to say if Kong Hee has been preaching more right than wrong? All it takes is a few sermons, my dear brother. Just as you don’t need to eat some canned food for a few months to discern whether the food in there is fresh.
Neither was I born Christian — in fact, nobody can be born Christian. To be a Christian is to consciously believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to die for our sins on the cross, died, and was resurrected 3 days later. You also need to consciously confess with your lips that Christ Jesus is Lord.
I hope that you read this with an open mind and not as someone older talking down to you. I’ve been a Christian for many years, and have gone through my fair share of following wrong doctrine and being a rootless Christian, i.e. someone who calls himself Christian but never practises the commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And that is why I take the trouble to write and warn against such false teachings as I myself have been disillusioned by them, and on hindsight I know that they didn’t do me any good in my Christian life. These type of teachings do not teach me to be a true Christian, nor to carry my own cross to follow Christ Jesus. It’s all ‘me, me, and me!’ and none of God.
I tried reading your blog but was stumbling through it because the navigation just befuddles me, sorry. The question, though, is not whether you’ve become a better person; it’s whether you’ve matured as a Christian.
Many people can become better too through other forms of religious beliefs; I’ve heard so many of those myself. For a Christian, what matters, in my opinion, is whether a person grows in faith as given from God, and seeks to do that which glorifies God, and not ourselves. And to glorify God means more than just being well-off in this life and being the ‘head and not the tail’ (which, also, is a favorite phrase of Joel Osteen’s if you listen in on some of his ’sermons’).
I’ll also encourage you to examine the lives and faith of the believers in the First Century and see for yourself what churches of that time did, then compare that to the watered-down sermons that these ‘great names in Christianity today’ are teaching.
Shabbat Shalom.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thank you for visiting my blog and for your words of encouragement, Promoter.
As stated, I do not have any malice in my heart when I warn against such teachers. I myself have come out of churches that teach the wrong things (such as one church trying to teach me to speak in tongues), and therefore I am very concerned about people learning the wrong things in churches today.
The prosperity gospel teaches nothing Biblical, but twists Scripture to put the focus on man. It’s the very same thing that the devil is very adapt at!
In painting the Christian life as a bed of roses, these teachers forget to tell the people that roses have thorns. And what happens when they get pricked by the thorns? They become disillusioned and fall away!
God bless, and Shabbat Shalom.
Posted by Q on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hello, all. Just my five cents. To those who disagree with Sicarii’s post, please take some time to do the following. When reading these bible passages, do observe how Jesus explains the parable.
1) Read Mark 4:1-20
2) Read Matthew 13:1-23
3) Read Luke 8:4-15
Observe that Jesus teaches, in no uncertain terms, that the seed refers to the word of God, that is sowed into human hearts. The receptive heart will receive the seed with joy and produce good fruit.
4) Now, please visit http://www.chc.org.sg/english/video_sermons/index.cfm
and play the video sermon titled “Forgiveness (Letting Go)” by Tan Ye Peng (13 Jan 08)”.
5) Watch the video, from 41min to 49min
May Christ open your eyes.
Sicarii, keep up the good work in contending for the faith! Btw, Daniel, good to see you here. It seems that I have a natural tendency to visit S’porean Christian blogs.
Posted by ahkok on 06.01.08 at 10:35
I have heard few wrong teachings by Kong Hee before. Wrong because the Bible Scriptures was quoted completely out of context. He used the Bible Scriptures to justify what he had already wanted to say. This is not the way to use Bible.
Imagine a church that can grow so much when the Bible is being used wrongly, how much can it grow if he had used the Bible correctly? Beyond our imagination.
Pray that he will wake up and use the Bible correctly as God wills, not as he wills.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thank you for pointing that out, Q, and for your words of encouragement. I saw that during the service, and was immediately filled with anger that the Word of God was so twisted to suit their purpose!
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Ahkok, thank you for visiting my blog and sharing your thoughts on this.
Posted by kate on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hi Guys
CHC always preaches topics, they never preach from the bible books or passages. Therefore in all their preachings, bible verses are quoted to support their topics and they will quote the most relevant version of the Bible. The last time a book was preached or studied was a few yrs back in Jurong night bible study of Isaiah but KH abandoned it half way. So if you want to say they preached out of context, it is like they do it every week. U can hear it from the webcast. The topics they preached generally centre around giving n wealth, healings, fulfilling your potential, how to be better person, fill with the HS, but also strongly on evangelism and extending the kingdom- their so called influencing the marketplace.
Likewise all their big time invited speakers be it Joyce Meyer or Phil Pringle or Benny Hinn etc. Their beliefs and style are similar, like-minded.
In fact they all claimed to have revelations from God or HS and preached their revelations instead of the Bible. They preached the prosperity gospel every week , 2 times a week if u attend CG…every offering they take is prefaced by a 2-5 min sharing of the prosperity preaching.
I’m stating facts here… I am no Bible scholar, therefore cannot say whether they are biblical or not… but I come to realise these are not for me so I left for a church that preaches from the Bible.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
hi there Kate,
Thank you for visiting my blog and sharing your thoughts on this issue.
Praise God, for He has opened your eyes and heart to seek Him in earnest! It is not your own doing, nor do you have to be a Bible scholar to be, that you know what was taught was wrong, for God has given unto you the wisdom to discern.
May the LORD bless and guide you in your walk with Him, sister.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by † P§¥KØ †™ on 06.01.08 at 10:35
first of all… to daniel chew:
Are your questions supposed to insult my church to a whole new level that I do not even know what is faith and what it means to be saved? Perhaps I may be assuming too much, but through your comments here, I realize you like to question and rebut through points. Very well then.
1) What is the gospel? It’s the good news… that God has come and died for our sins so that we may spend eternity with Him. He saved us from our certain death and has given all who believe in Him new life in Him.
2) How do I know I’m saved? That I’m not worshipping some image of Jesus? How about the new life I’ve embraced? Where my weakness and evils in the past have been overcome? Where I could not overcome them last time, with Christ, I am able to now. When I pray, and I feel a certain presence around me that really just gives me peace, is that just an image? I don’t think so. The reality of Jesus in my life is really beyond words. I have felt His presence when I’m so down. When there are times I’m put to the test, and certain I fill fail, He finds a way, and grants me the strength to go on the narrow way. When, at certain times, I feel like leaving the Christian faith, He’ll always find a way, through people, revelations or even through my quiet time with Him, to lead me back, to remind me of His love and forgiveness. All that cannot be experienced with an image.
3) I did not say that numbers and influence equaled to faithfulness. Perhaps I implied it. If so, I do apologize, for that is not what I meant. What I said, clearly, was that if all of us are led to believe false things, how then can so many lives be changed? Sure, other religions can pull you up ethically, but to really renew your mind? To change your entire lifestyle of past sin? Only Christianity has done that. And I’ve seen plenty of it in my church.
4) As for your list of people you don’t consider as true preachers, I really have nothing to say about that. I’ve heard them preach, and fine, I may not have heard the more controversial messages, but the things I have, are biblical. If it may be my short-sightedness in other areas they preach about, then it is my mistake. But the things I have heard from them are biblical. Perhaps you could show why they aren’t true preacher.
And to Sicarri…
As I have said, the messages I’ve heard from them are bibilical. Those I have not, fine, I cannot assume. But I’d like to know why you and Daniel don’t consider them true preachers.
And I have a very open mind, of that I can assure you. I don’t consider you talking down to me, but I must admit, your tone through text isn’t the most friendly. As for the wrong doctrines and all, I have to say, so far, I have been putting God above every area of my life. There’s no “me, me, me” doctrines I hear about. In church or cellgroup, I have always been taught to put God first, and to serve Him before yourself, even at the cost of sacrifice.
And I will say I have matured in Christ. But isn’t the change of our behavior a natural process of maturing in Christ? Before, when I was a young Christian, it just just a decision to follow Jesus. Later on, as I grew in Christ, I began to understand the Bible in ways I never thought I would. Verses and stories that were just words to me began to fill with life as I saw how God used the people in the Bible. I acted with maturity with wisdom in other areas of my life, which I trace directly back to my faith. I have grown, and I have grown and changed much more in these 6 years than I could have without Jesus. And the thing is, it was through this church. If they teach so much false things, I would have never matured as I am, and would have become one of the worst hypocrites ever. My life is my testimony, and as other Christians from other churches and denominations can testify, I have grown… in this church, specifically.
And to Kate:
They do not preach the prosperity gospel every single week. They may mention it during offerings, but preaching as a message? Not as you say it. I attend cellgroup meetings every week and even then the prosperity gospel is rarely used in offerings. I find it very judgmental and very assuming of you do say that, when I can testify that there is no such thing. I don’t deny we preach the prosperity message during some offerings, and on some sermons, but there is no truth at all when you say it is preached (per se) every single week.
For your information, the Bible study of Isaiah was not abandoned halfway. Isaiah was completed, and Pastor Kong wanted to continue it in another part. He didn’t though, and went through with another Bible study. I don’t call that “abandoning”. He did finish it. Stopping a follow up isn’t abandoning.
Posted by † P§¥KØ †™ on 06.01.08 at 10:35
And I would like to add, my church has preached from the books of the Bible, and from passages. I still remember several, and they were not “years ago”. I shan’t go into details now though.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Psyko:
I don’t think I have been unfriendly in my tone, but I shan’t go into that too much because online communication does not allow for non-verbal cues so it’s inevitable that you can read it as unfriendly.
If I may, let me point out one fact: you seem to equate your walk with God with the church that you attend. While I rejoice with you that you have come to wisdom and maturity by God’s grace, you need to recognize that that is the work of God, not the church’s.
Growth in wisdom and maturity is under guidance of the Holy Spirit, not the pastors in a church or a church or a denomination, brother. It is my opinion that attending church and listening to pastors’ sermons are for fellowship and encouragement.
Shalom Aleichem.
Posted by ron on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Personally, i am not from CHC but am from 2 hall down expo hall 8.. After reading the post, I believe and understand that every individual has their own opinion and interpretations.From most of the sermons i heard by him,it’s all based on what Scriptures says and also what the Greek and Hebrew meanings. I feel that Kong Hee is not dangerous preacher. Instead the cheap grace message preachers are the ones dangerous.Kong Hee at least teaches that 10 commandments are relevant and should be based on The Sermon on the Mount.. Cheap grace preachers teaches you can sin all you like and still receive God’s grace. SO go ahead and sin.To say he preaches by topics, is true in a way. He had topics like Sermon on the MOunt, Antinomianism, , all these topics are helping Christians in their walk.So it’s kind of unfair to judge him in this way
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Ron,
Wow, I’ll try not to say much here. I’m from New Creation Church (NCC) - which people have accused of preaching “cheap grace”. City Harvest Church’s “antinomian” series was clearly directed against New Creation. I think that’s sad. Besides the fact that “cheap grace” is an awful term which does more to confuse than clarify, NCC does not teach that Christians can sin all they want. That’s such a sad misunderstanding. Pastor Prince has spoken on this issue over and over again.
Ron, just as I wish people here would think twice before lashing out and condemning CHC, I wish others would do the same before accusing New Creation Church of something they don’t believe in.
Eventhough City Harvest did a whole series aimed at NCC, I will continue to bless City Harvest. I think they are a wonderful Church. I’ve also heard Pastor Prince blessing their church. He’s not ignorant of what CHC says of NCC. But I think it just shows the kind of man he is that he is able to extend grace to them and not play this game of judging other churches.
I think we need to stop accusing other churches wrongly. We’re all on the same side. I don’t agree with City Harvest’s view on many things but they are doing such a marvelous work. I know no other church in Singapore which is as passionate as them regarding outreach and missions - NCC not withstanding. FCBC is doing a marvelous work too. I love NCC and it has its strengths as well as weaknesses. I don’t agree with NCC and Pastor Prince on everything said and done there but people are wrong to accuse them of being a dangerous church and one which teaches you can sin all you want. God’s using Pastor Prince to reach and bless lives just as He’s using Pastor Kong Hee and Lawrence Khong to do so.
I hope I won’t say more here. The only person who’s looking upon this thread with glee is the devil. And non-Christians who see this have every right to accuse us Christians of a lack of charity and love. How would a non-Christian feel if all we do is fight with each other and accuse each other. We’re on the same team. We may not realize this now but I think one day before the Lord we’ll realize how foolish we’ve all been on earth and how the devil has led us into playing his games. I know some will not agree with me here. Feel free to disagree with the theology of others but please take care regarding what we say and what words we use to describe others and their teachings.
Posted by Daniel Chew on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Wow wow wow wow,
First of all, Jonathan is up to his antics again. I think I’ll just ignore his ‘pleas’ for diabolical ecunmenity based on the dialetical process. And I will continue to pray and work towards the day when all of the visible Church will renounce Jonthan’s “theology” and repent of their ecumenism and turn to Christ alone for their doctrine.
Posted by Daniel Chew on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Psyko:
My questions were not directed against your church per se as yet, though if the shoe fits…
1) Does the Gospel message includes anything about the wrath of God?
2) Are you sure you want to maintain that you know you are saved because of your feelings? What can you say to a person who claims the same feelings with regards to his conversion to let’s say Mormonism?
3) Thanks for telling us that you do not believe in the ‘numbers = faithfulness’ equation. That’s a good start. That said, how do you know that “Only Christianity has done that [change you entire lifestyle of past sin]“? Have you talked with converts to other religions before? I have heard their conversion testimonies, so I am sure that assertion of yours is not right.
4) Fine with that. So let’s start with 3 simple questions first:
a) Does CHC (or NCC for that matter) teach that believers will have to (not may) suffer for their Christian faith according to 2 Tim. 3:12? That they may be discriminated in the workplace, hated by the world, lose their jobs etc.?
b) Do they teach that we should not chase after money cf Mt. 6:24?
c) Do they teach that Christians are to persue holiness cf 1 Peter 1:16, and that without holiness they cannot see God? (cf Heb. 12:14). Along those lines, do they teach and discipline members who refuse to dress modestly (ie girls should not reveal their body parts to incite lust)?
I think this would suffice.
Posted by ron on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hi Stillhaventfound.org,
i re-read my post again and i confirmed that i didn’t spoke anything about NCC. And I won’t unless neccessary because it’s my ex-church. But i moved on to FCBC because i was kind of feeling abit funny wth what i was fed in church.
. Anyway, I had listen to what Pastor Prince taught about the grace, i forgot the title of the message.. Before i listened to the antinomianism series. I also seek counsel from my leaders in my church and i know that what Pastor Kong taught was truly correct n the antinomianism series. In fact, my leaders are encouraging to listen and so that we will not waver. Perhaps you may feel Pastor Kong is directing to NCC. At 1st, i thought so too, but later, i don’t because i discovered all around the world, this watered-down grace gospel is everywhere. In U.S, Sweden, Australia..
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Daniel,
You are right in that I have no right to judge you and say “I believe your actions and words are not out of love.” I do not know your heart and so it was wrong of me to say that. I apologize to you on that.
What I can say is that you’ve written a lot of lies about me here and on your blog. That I can judge because I know what I believe or not. I have no desire to counter them because I don’t think it’s of any great use.
You can continue to label me, accuse me of believing things I don’t believe and even question my salvation. That’s OK with me. God is my ultimate judge and knows my heart. And seriously, I am not afraid of what you say or think of me because that’s not important at all. I know my identity in Christ.
God bless!
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hi Ron. Thanks for your response. You are right that you did not mention NCC. I assumed that you’re referring to NCC and Pastor Prince when you wrote disparagingly of cheap grace preachers. I’ve never heard any person or Church in Singapore accused of preaching a “cheap grace” message and that the 10 Commandments are not for today - except Pastor Prince and NCC. So I assumed you’re talking about NCC.
Sure, the “antinomian” series may not be directly aimed at NCC but at churches everywhere that believe in the so-called “watered-down grace gospel”. But no doubt NCC was one church in mind. It’s quite well-known throughout Christianity in Singapore that NCC is heavily persecuted and attacked for preaching a so called “cheap grace” gospel and one that says you can sin all you want and it’s OK. No other church I know is accused of that in Singapore.
Anyway, if you don’t think NCC is such a church, then that’s great and I apologize for assuming you had NCC in mind. But if you did have NCC in mind eventhough you didn’t explicitly say so, then all I’ll say here is that that’s a great misunderstanding of what NCC teaches. I won’t mention much here. If you’re interested, you can go to my website where I’m doing a series on NCC.
Suffice to say, NCC does not believe that we can sin all we want. Their heavy emphasis on grace is because they believe it’s messages of grace that develop godliness in Christians. It’s the goodness of God that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). And it’s the grace of God that teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions (Titus 2:12).
I don’t know of any “grace preachers” (if I may call them) that believe we can sin all we want. The difference is not in the end product - we all seek that Christians live lives glorifying to God. Neither NCC nor any other church that preaches strongly on grace will be happy when their members go out and sin! The difference is in the means to that end. “Grace preachers” believe that by emphasizing God’s love towards Christians, that will develop godliness. Those who criticize “grace preachers” say that too much grace will lead to abuse and sinfulness and seem to want to use the fear of judgement to inspire and motivate godliness. This is the main issue and disagreement between grace churches and its critics and while I may not agree with everything NCC teaches, I think they are more right than wrong in seeing grace as an important motivation towards godliness.
Cheers Ron!
Posted by Charles on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Jonathan and Psyko:
I can see where the both of u are coming: As long as my church spread the gospel and save lives, it can be forgiven for mistakes (e.g. pastors taking verses out of context).
But…are people really saved when they are given a different gospel (via quoting out of context, prosperity doctrine etc)?
The answer is clearly no. Taking verses out of context is dangerous!
I have a friend in NCC who is a lesbian, and till now she ignore God’s commands to repent and instead concentrate on “grace, grace, grace” all the time. No doubt we have God’s grace, but this is taking God’s grace for granted!
Also, I do not understand why CHC still invite “preachers” like Benny Hinn to Singapore.
I believe that many people started out theologically sound until they finally shifted their position. Jonathan, I like the way you presented yourself and your faith on your blog. Pls dun descend down like the likes of Benny Hinn. These guys are so deluded that they believed that they are doing God’s work but in fact all they are interested is to earn big bucks from believers.
Posted by Charles on 06.01.08 at 10:35
And just to show how the prosperity doctrine from CHC is warped:
Another friend of mine from CHC said the following:
GOD NEVER INTEND US TO BE POOR. IF JESUS IS AROUND NOW, HE WOULD BE A RICH GUY.
She concluded that GOD is rich, so Christ is a rich man’s son.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Thank you for visiting my blog and sharing your views on this issue, Charles.
That’s a rather interesting statement to make. Maybe she missed out reading Matthew 8:20. :-)
Shalom!
Posted by Charles on 06.01.08 at 10:35
No prob.
I was from NCC too, and luckily I was not sucked into their prosperity doctrine.
Think you are right in saying that every year they say is a better year. These are the same old things they say every year.
Posted by Sicarii on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Indeed, Charles.
Besides Kong Hee, I also occasionally listen to people like Joel Osteen and the like to find out what they are teaching, and the ‘every year is a better year’ cry is an all-too-familiar refrain on each new year’s day.
God bless, and Shalom!
Posted by stillhaventfound.org on 06.01.08 at 10:35
Hi Charles,
Just to comment on one thing you wrote. It was maybe 2-3 weeks ago that a lesbian couple was confronted in NCC (quite rudely by the sounds of it) by one of the pastors - because the pastor suspected they were lesbian through their actions. The incident was described in both of the girls’ blogs. I won’t place a link to the blogs here but you can email me if you want to view the blogs. I wouldn’t agree with the way NCC handled the matter but I’m letting you know this in response to what you wrote.
Posted by John T on 06.01.08 at 10:35